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:: Récapitulatif et reprise en avant ::
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Cmoi-SuperC
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MessagePosté le: Jeu 24 Nov - 11:44 (2011)    Sujet du message: Récapitulatif et reprise en avant Répondre en citant

Voilà , je crois qu'on arrive au bout de l'histoire.
Perso, je pense qu'ils ne nous ont jamais pris au sérieux.
C'est vraiment dommage pour ceux qui y ont laissé beaucoup de temps et d'énergie.
Reste que je suis vraiment content d'avoir participé à l'aventure avec vous.
Merci à ceux qui ont tenu le coup malgré l'adversité et merci à ceux qui nous ont supporté.




Maintenant, je vais aller voir du côté de Red Orchestra 2 car le SDK ne va plus tarder.
Les devs sont bien plus ouverts et en plus ils vous conseillent.... Shocked

Je pense qu'il y a moyen de trouver une formule de gameplay entre FH2 et RO2 et d'y mettre l'armée française.

En attendant le SDK, Je vous invite à découvrir L'UDK ici et également à aller faire un tour sur forum de tripwire /modding
il y a de nombreux tutos dispos un peu partout pour vous faire la main.

Le French Hope a perdu une bataille mais pas la guerre.

Messieurs, je reste dans le coin à votre disposition. french class





Ps: Moi aussi mon petit musska ! Je me souviendrai longtemps de cette balade en citroen rose avec ta main sur ma cuisse près de Zuydcotte !!! Mort de Rire
 
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/forumdisplay.php?s=0c40adae0febe14843…
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MessagePosté le: Jeu 24 Nov - 13:31 (2011)    Sujet du message: Récapitulatif et reprise en avant Répondre en citant

Rah bande de moules ^^ !
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MessagePosté le: Jeu 24 Nov - 18:10 (2011)    Sujet du message: Récapitulatif et reprise en avant Répondre en citant

C'est clair que c'est dommage, surtoût pour ceux qu'on bossés comme des malades, moi même j'ai quasiment rien fait, juste une mini-map papier.
Si quelqu'un veut m'aider ou prendre le flambeau, à sa guise., surtoût qu'elle à l'air plus dans les "standards" FH que Sedan ou Dynamo par exemple (ils veulent pas de grandes cartes, du gameplay à la "fonce dans le tas" non ?)

En tout cas, belle aventure, et bonne chance à ceux qui persévèreront, et pour le test aussi.
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MessagePosté le: Jeu 24 Nov - 19:12 (2011)    Sujet du message: Récapitulatif et reprise en avant Répondre en citant

N'arrêtez pas le modding à cause de ça, SuperC a raison, y a d'autres horizons.

Je vais juste rajouter sur le forum officiel que les cartes seront dispo pour les tournois, on en a déjà discuter donc pas de soucis je crois.


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MessagePosté le: Ven 25 Nov - 10:22 (2011)    Sujet du message: Récapitulatif et reprise en avant Répondre en citant

Arretez le modding ??? JAMAIS

Je suis un...DEVELOPPEUR !!!! 3 fois même ^^ !!!!
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MessagePosté le: Ven 25 Nov - 18:43 (2011)    Sujet du message: Récapitulatif et reprise en avant Répondre en citant

Non, effectivement ça veut pas dire stop. Par contre, le fait de développer pour faire des cartes françaises pour  les devs FH2 ça oui c'est fini, je veux dire, sauf s'ils changent demain d'avis, on ne travaille plus dans l'idée de leur donner quelque chose. Maintenant on fait le mappack pour décembre et ceux qui le souhaitent on continue à faire notre petit bout de chemin à notre rythme pour notre plaisir et celui de la communauté.


Sinon voici l'ensemble des réponses sur le fofo:



Psykfallet

Citation:
 Some things I think should be fixed:
-Dynamo factory too freaking huge
-Too many trucks on the beach
+perhaps add a new flag at the beach hills?

-better bunker textures on La Varde
-town looks overgrown and abandoned for years
-bit less of a jungle in Allied mainbase

I'm not sure but it looks from the minimap the 2 oob areas inside Dynamo could be a bit smaller to allow more manouvering, but also they dont make much sense unless they're minefields
-------------
I didnt play Dynamo and Sedan that much but they felt pretty empty when there was about 40ppl on the server. Mostly it was a lone tank attacking the city or some outpost. But I'd like to test these new proposed versions. La Varde seemed to work but cant tell if it was balanced. Stonne we only tested a little and aside from a bit long travel distance it also seemed to work.
-------------
well I had another quick look at Dynamo and I do agree aswell that in its current form it won't work, nor do I think the proposed increased OOB will make much difference. The main problem still exists, too far between flags=long transport times=less action=longer playtime=ppl get bored faster. It's the size of Gazala. But early gazala also had this problem with Bir Hakeim. It took forever to drive there, so few germans went there, the allies that spawned there were bored cause nothing happened, and it diverted action from the center and north into the whole south (spreading the fighting to the whole map). Also it was a huge area wich needed atleast 2 squads from each team to be entertaining (wich is why that area alone is the 16p layer).

The problem isn't that it's unrealistic layout or lack of detail, on the contrary it looks amazingly realistic and is super detailed and I can only imagine the amount of work that was put into it. But to make it work for 64 players I think basicly the flags have to be moved closer to the center at the expense of realistic layout but that would probably too much work (wich I guess is what Natty says). Or alternativly add alot of smaller outposts ala St.Vith between flags (But I think the addition of 3-4 flags would only complicate it). Or 1 attack path (east/west) have to be scrapped altogether. Then there is the issue of fighting zones. Areas like the Factory and Sanatorium can easily swallow 32+ players due to their sizes, they need to be made alot smaller.

Sedan basicly had much of the same problems, but did focus more of the action to the center and might with the new OOB and the exclusion of the city itself work.

La Varde had imo most potential, for sure it needs improvements but I had fun playing it (especially the later stages) even though yeah it might have been a bit confusing in the first stages.

Stonne, I had fun with this aswell, could use shorter transport distances though.

Abaddon
Citation:

 I really like the new OOB-area setup you guys have created for Stonne. Not only did you guys manage to focus the battle in one particular section of the map, but keep all the good stuff ("Pain de Sucre" and town (currently the best looking destroyed town ingame IMO)) and get rid of all the bad stuff - the boring, generic cap zone (farm) South of "Pain de Sucre" and long drives over open plains. I for one cannot wait to see how this map plays out in our weekly test sessions.

I never had any problems with the size of the map of the Battle of Sedan. At least the long drives didn't feel as boring as on Stonne, as there is far less open space on this map to navigate through. But what I didn't like about this map was Southern part. The two cities. In it's current layout these two places are totally unsuited to get a nice battle going on. The city on the left bank is just a centric maze in which you can't take any shortcuts. It's just continuous row of buildings after another. If you want to help your teammates fight of the enemy in an adjacent street then you have to walk the street all the way down to the intersection. There are almost no open buildings, ruins or totally collapsed buildings that allow you to travel fast from one part of the town to another. The city to much setup to look like the real deal, the real city. This is really bad for gameplay. Not only is it hard to navigate through the citycenter, but also it's really frustrating to defend the place. Fighting is only focused inside the streets. You can't enter/climb certain buildings or setup a nice defensive position as there are no defensive positions setup by the mapper. No sandbag MG or AT-nests, controlpoints, ambush sites, no vital points to defend whatsoever inside the city.     

Also there is way too many different buildings (different textures) being used in such a small area, this no good for performance (we had the same problem in early builds of SME). Reduce the set of buildings, re-use more of the same of buildings.     

The city on the right bank of the river is abit better, but in general suffers from the same mistakes. Also here there is no visible line of defense set up here counter the German panzer army. There a no strongpoints, AT positions or any other interesting places to fight over.   

Haven't had a chance to play Festung La Varde before, but from what I saw and the comments I read on the public forum it sure looks and sounds promising. It's introducing a new, fresh game type: siege warfare - full frontal Atlantikwall fortification assault - what's not to like! 

Dynamo looked pretty, but felt totally unfocused and the first 3 flags (Crossroads, Zuid Crabbenburg, Bridge) looked like to easy targets to just spawncamp with tanks. The new OOB looks nice, although at the same time a bit weird like psykfallet noted, but in the end will probably play out nicely as these two center area leave out alot of useless uninteresting terrain. Some static cleaning to boost performance and we are good to go I guess.   
Strat 84 (ma réponse favorite !)

 
Citation:
 Bart, you shouldn't take what Natty said too seriously.
I truely think that in general half of what he says is very interesting (sometimes even brilliant) but the other half is pure bullshit. When he talked about scrapping maps, he was in a bullshit day ...

I believe that as long as a map has a good landscape (a real life one especially), it can be a playable map, whatever the game is. You just have to be a bit innovative to make it interesting to play.
What do you think about the real life soldiers, did they first ask developpers to check the pattern of the battlefield before fighting ? Surely not, they fought how they could, where they could.

Of course, with this philosophy you tend to have maps that do not follow at all the video games industry scenarios and rules, and that's probably why it disturbs Natty a lot.
But different doesn't necessarily mean bad


Seriously, this is a shame to waste so much work like this. Whatever it is the time that was invested in modeling French vehicles and statics, or the one that was spent in mapping. And especially when it happens because one side is a bit too narrow minded, and the other one a bit too liable.
Ciupita

 
Citation:
 I just wonder why didn't we test french hope maps pre 2.4? We tested Meuse River for a month without a single patch...





Réponse de Devs:
Malsa (celle qui m'a faite enragée)

 
Citation:
It was determined that it would be TOO MUCH work to explain what you guys should do to brings the maps up to the required level. It may seem rude, but the fact is that we don't owe anyone to spend all this time on giving feedback on someone else's projects when we can spend the time on our own content and maps. This is the reason why you recieved so little feedback, I hope you can understand this.


Natty

 
Citation:
 thx for the long post Bart


No, I wont go on the pub forum explaining internal developer info. We talk here.

You deserve our honesty, so here it is: Most maps you presented will as Malsa says - be too much work for us to finish. We can spend hours per week testing them, writing long essays about what should be done, both in design and art departments, but it will be almost as much work as doing it ourselves....

Look... BF2 might be old engine, but to make a finished map - I mean 100% finished so it can be released in a mod - is extremely complicated and requires a deep understanding for both tech-, art-, design- but really, most of all: Scale. We have looked through your maps and all suffer from the same syndrome - Mapper did not have a sense of scale.

What is scale? It is not just as easy as say "big or small" I look at in two ways;

1) Experience scale
2) Relative scale

1) Experience scale is measurement. Ingame how the player perceives the game.
  • How long can I run in 20sec?
  • What is the time I have to get in to cover when an enemy spots me?
  • How long will I be able to run during an enemy tanks reloading?
  • How long can I run while Im reloading my weapon?
  • How many seconds is to next cover?
  • How long will I be able to run while the enemy I just killed, respawns?
  • How much closer to the flag will the enemy be able to get while Im respawning?

etc.... and the answers to these questions are not "how many meters?" it is the distances in your map. Between house X and Y... The "experience measurements" is not in meters. Players dont think in meters, they think in terms of cover and where the map takes them to a useful place.


Two mappers with a great sense of experience scale is Knoffhoff and Mr Cheese. Study Sfkaia, Lebisey and Hurtgen Forest and you will see what I mean. They are designed so players can see the pattern of useful places to go. This is good scale design.

2) Relative scale. This is terrain and objects relative scale between eachother. Imagine you are looking at Google Earth. you know how you can "zoom down" so you see a town very detailed (house by house, even cars) and sometime you look from a high altitude? (see towns as smaller dots). A map can not be a mix between these two "zooms".... you need to pick one, and be consistent over the map. If you choose the high-altitude zoom (to be able to map a big area) you cant be detailed in some places and put chairs or flowerpots, or interior in houses etc..

Consistency scale is what creates a believeable environment. Look at Cobra in FH2. It has horrible consistency scale. On one hand we're looking at this huge area, with 500m open big fields, but then all of a sudden there is a whole town squeezed in which is seemingly 1:1 made?... this is a "skewed" scale.

If you want to learn about good consistency scale, look at Pdh or PeB. Both brilliant examples of where the players "buy" the scale. He slips in to a speed and beaviour that he can keep the whole map. That is what I mean with good experience. Those map "sell" the concept of a world to players, that they accept and believes in. Cobra does not. Many French Hope map, does not.

The maps I viewed, had severe problems in both these areas. Dynamo was the worst, and it was my opinion that it can not be saved. It might be "fun" to play, because it's new and our testers have played fh2 so much that everything new feels fun, but when looking at the map objectively, I simply dont want to see that in FH2. Not with those scales... Other maps were better - had better consistency - but Im unsure about the experience scale of them; If you will be able to create a good and fun combat flow through them.

This is not the end, maps takes years to grow. I suggest you look at this as a business
You want to sell a map to us, we want to buy it (we do!) but we can not add it to our product, if it does not have the standard, basic ingredients. We did that in the past, and our mod suffers from it. We do have crap maps in FH2, we will not add any more. We cant afford it!
This is not about making maps "pretty" like Pdh or Sfakia or Fall of Tobruk with thousands of details and superb textures + lighting etc.. we see past all that. This is about the core of the maps. The skeleton.
We have nothing to gain from "playing hard to get" here. All devs viewed your maps, and no one saw any real potential or hopes to bring them through the long and complex process of testing + iteration + feedback + testing + finalization ---> release. We want to! Hell, I want it as much as Seth Soldier does! I love the early war, the low tech, the fall of france and all that.... but our love for the vision of these maps does not overcome our love for well designed maps that work.

Here's an example, one of the first maps I did for FH1, in FHT tournament, it is a map about the battles around Spycker close to Dunkirk. I was given this assignment and I wanted to do "Op. Dynamo" with Dunkirk, but it wasn't what was ordered, so I had to do an unknown battle that happened before Dunkirk, around Spycker, France.
I totally screwed up the scale on this map!

I made it too big, too unconsistent (in one area large fields and hills, in another a small detailed village, in another a large detailed town with underground sewers etc)... bad experience scale (players just drove around aimlessly) no predicatable action, way too many CPs etc...

If I were to send this map - this "French Hope map" to FH1 team, they would reject it.
Im showing you this, not to kill your motivation, but to make you realize that you need to have these things under control if we are to "buy" your map. Our wallets are open, there is a place on the shelf for your maps, we just need them to fit on the shelf.

Take this as inspiration, not demotivation. Consider your first maps "prototypes" look what you learned when making them, and know for a fact that when you build them for real, you'll do it twice as fast and twice as good. Prototypes are never "waste of time", they are just as much part of the end design as the actual content you build.

thx for reading, and happy mapping!

"The breaking point" , a lesson in failed scale design



Knoffhoff

 
Citation:
 Don't blame Malsa on that, blame me.
Even though I never wanted to do this job and never wanted us to give you high hopes before we actually had a brief look at the maps , I was the one who was supposed to give you feedback on your maps. But I did not do it.
You ask why?
When I got the maps I never saw the potential for those maps to become FH2 ready. It is not just that they have to be overworked to make their appearance match the quality of a FH map. They have too many flaws in the basic setup and design that just can't easily be fixed. Making a complete new map most likely would be faster than trying to fix one of the existing ones.
I spent at least 10 hours looking at your maps, playing your maps and started writing feedback about your maps. But I realized that any feedback I give will not help to make any of the maps FH2 ready.
I realized what you guys need, is a tutorial on what to keep in mind when planning and designing a map rather than feedback on the existing maps.
Now I'm not to much of a tutorial writer. I like to talk rather, not to write. My writing takes 100 times the time my speaking does.  And it is already hard enough for me to make my points in my native language, so English is even much more trouble.
Still I started to write something. But a hour later, thinking about  what I'm doing I decided to stop it. I have enough problems finding the motivation to spent time on things I actually like, so why should I put the pressure on myself to do something that I never wanted to do and to be honest didn't see much potential in.
Of course this is not a excuse to not give you any feedback at all. But this is how it went.  Still I want to apology to you for saying that I will do the job when there was nobody else to do it and then not doing it.

Anyways, don't let yourself being dragged down by the negative comments from us devs on your maps. Pretty much every mapper started with shitty maps. Some improve others don't. But to find out what it is for you, you have to keep on mapping. If it is for FH2 or any other BF2 mod, or even a complete different game doesn't matter. If you like doing it keep doing it and maybe at one point you will take a look at your first maps and think: "what have I been thinking". 

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MessagePosté le: Ven 25 Nov - 21:25 (2011)    Sujet du message: Récapitulatif et reprise en avant Répondre en citant

Merci 162, ça rétablit la part des choses.
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MessagePosté le: Sam 26 Nov - 12:40 (2011)    Sujet du message: Récapitulatif et reprise en avant Répondre en citant

Y a une mésentente là c'est sur, Bocquier si tu voulais reprendre le projet t'aurais du le dire quand on a discuté avec 162, Connar et moi , c'était clair non ? c'est fini, tu t'excuses en ton nom si tu veux, au nom du "new french hope" pas comme t'as fais quand tu as eu les droits !!!

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MessagePosté le: Sam 26 Nov - 15:34 (2011)    Sujet du message: Récapitulatif et reprise en avant Répondre en citant

Bah j'ai pas les droits, et je veux pas reprendre le french hope à ma sauce.C'est fini le French Hope, maintenant on bidouille chacun de son côté !je me suis peut etre mal exprimé, je m'excusai pour les attaques contre les personnes, pas pour ce qu'on a fait.
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MessagePosté le: Sam 26 Nov - 15:41 (2011)    Sujet du message: Récapitulatif et reprise en avant Répondre en citant

Ca me déçoit tellement vous savez les gars...si ils nous avaient dit qu'ils n'auraient pas le temps de nous conseiller mais juste de nous dire c'est bien ou c'est merdique...au moins ça m'aurait pas foutu un si gros coup.

Si je fais Phoney War, c'est pour voir qu'on a pas fait ça pour rien...(de toute façon les maps existent!!)

Bon courage à tous...

Je vous tiens au jus pour the Phoney War. J'espère que les devs réfléchiront à deux fois.
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MessagePosté le: Sam 26 Nov - 16:10 (2011)    Sujet du message: Récapitulatif et reprise en avant Répondre en citant

Ca m'a fichu un coup quand j'ai lu ton post, comment veux tu être respectueux avec eux , au moins on a tous su, c'est dommage d'en arriver à montrer les crocs pour discuter c'est sur, mais de la à s'exuser nous pour enfin avoir une goutte d'interêt, Bocquier j'ai presque eu une attaque !

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MessagePosté le: Sam 26 Nov - 16:13 (2011)    Sujet du message: Récapitulatif et reprise en avant Répondre en citant

Profil bas, je me suis viandé.
J'ai corrigé mon post tout à l'heure.
Et mon but n'était pas de graisser la patte, rassure toi.
J'espère avoir rectifié le tir sur mon dernier post.
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MessagePosté le: Sam 26 Nov - 16:48 (2011)    Sujet du message: Récapitulatif et reprise en avant Répondre en citant

Ouais, mais répondre au mépris par l'agressivité n'est pas forcément une solution. Ca coulerait absolument tous les espoirs de voir une map custom sur FH un jour. Ils voulaient déjà plus de nos maps, se les mettre à dos n'arrangera rien, malheureusement, ça diminuera juste les chances de voir nos maps être intégrées un jour. Qui sait, le jour ou ils se rendront compte que FH coule, ils changeront d'avis ?
Evidemment, je ne dis pas qu'il faut leur dire Amen, il faut faire passer un message simple et clair. Ils sont déjà assez renfermés sur eux même,ne les encouragont pas d'avantage.
Après je ne suis sûrement pas déçu au même degré que vous, qui avez passés des heures incalculables sur ce projet. Je vous ai rejoint il y a peu, je ne connaît pas tous les tenants et les aboutissants de l'histoire, mais ne rentrons pas dans leur jeu.
On a pas le soutien des devs ? Est-ce celui qui est le plus important au fond. Cessons d'être agressifs, continuons avec The Phoney War et le test, et attiront nous le soutien de la communauté, c'est celui-là le plus important.
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MessagePosté le: Sam 26 Nov - 18:21 (2011)    Sujet du message: Récapitulatif et reprise en avant Répondre en citant

je crois que master a raison...

Aujourd'hui je fais des tests de gameplay pour tpw, (les objectifs)
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MessagePosté le: Sam 26 Nov - 21:05 (2011)    Sujet du message: Récapitulatif et reprise en avant Répondre en citant

 
Citation:
 Please tell your french hope this:

1. We created a french hope forum, but we didnt see so much communication there.... Some wiki links and minimaps, but no progression, or updates on maps

as In: Post map, post problems, post solution to problems etc... so we (devs) can follow the development, and see how maps "grow" - this is real design, iteration


2.our internal forum crashed and we now have a new one. THIS is a problem, and sadly we dont have room now for new french hope forum again.... we also dont have a DEV that can take the time to be ambassador / supporter for French Hope.... WE WANT TO
because it is cool with early france.. but no one has time....

--- think a bit how you want this organistion to work
please write down the steps we shall take (you map, send us map? you arrange testing, you gather feedback from testers, send us feedback, then send us how you will fix problems etc)

We are interested in three things

A) Exactly how the map is planned to play out when it is done (walkthrough)
B) Your problems that you see in testing
C) Your solutions to those problems

Repeat step B) and C) until map reaches A) "finished"

Please help us understand how we can monitor / follow your work and make sure you are on top of these problems

Cheers! and good luck 


Natty


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